About this episode Join our two esteemed critics as they dive deep into Michael Jackson's iconic album, 'Thriller.' They'll spar over whether this monumental work of art continues to captivate audiences and stand the test of time, dissecting its musical innovations, cultural impact, and enduring relevance. Tune in to hear a lively, insightful discussion that will challenge your perceptions and deepen your appreciation for one of music history's greatest achievements.
0:00 So, is Michael Jackson's Thriller the most important album ever made, or is it just the biggest?0:07 Wow, no softballs today.0:08 That's the question, isn't it?0:11 It feels even bigger than our debate last week on The Godfather, because that was just a film.0:18 This was...0:19 everything.0:19 It was a total cultural reset.0:22 The best-selling album in history.0:24 This year, for the US 250th birthday, The Washington Post named it one of the twenty-five most influential works of American culture.0:34 It’s not just an album; it’s a monument.0:37 Okay, but monuments can also be relics.0:40 Are we celebrating the art, or are we just nostalgic for the moment it created?0:46 I think it’s absolutely the art.0:48 You have to start with the music, before the videos, before the hype.0:54 Quincy Jones and Michael created this perfect fusion of pop, rock, funk...0:59 "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'" is, like, this incredibly dense, almost scary funk track.1:06 Oh, I'll give you that one.1:08 An AllMusic critic called it "the most claustrophobic, scariest track Jackson ever recorded," and I totally get that.1:16 Right?1:17 And then you have "Beat It," which has Eddie Van Halen's guitar solo on it.1:22 That wasn't just a cool feature; it was a statement.1:26 It smashed the walls between R&B radio and rock radio.1:30 That's fair, but you can't actually separate the music from the imagery.1:36 A critic, Nelson George, said it perfectly: "It's difficult to hear the songs from Thriller and disengage them from the videos." The images define the songs.1:47 So which one is the masterpiece?1:50 The music, or the marketing?1:52 I think they're two parts of the same whole artistic vision!1:56 The "Billie Jean" video wasn't just a video; it was the battering ram that broke racial barriers at MTV.2:04 They refused to play it, and then the sheer force of its popularity made them cave.2:10 That's not just marketing, that's revolutionary.2:14 I hear you, but the revolution was televised on a brand-new channel that was desperate for content that felt like an event.2:23 It was a perfect storm.2:25 My question is, does that storm still rage, or are we just looking at the, you know, historical weather report?2:33 The album's success is so tied to that specific MTV media environment.2:38 Okay, but consider the Thriller video itself.2:42 A fourteen-minute short film directed by John Landis, the guy who did An American Werewolf in London.2:49 It had a massive budget, a whole storyline...2:53 it literally created the "making-of" documentary genre.2:57 It sold over a million copies on VHS!3:00 And Siskel and Ebert gave it a thumbs down!3:03 They saw it as all horror tropes and gimmicks, not, uh, meaningful art.3:08 They had a point!3:09 Is a big budget and a zombie dance what makes something timeless?3:14 A gimmick?3:15 It was a cultural atom bomb!3:17 The choreography is a global phenomenon.3:20 It’s been recreated in Bollywood and in prisons in the Philippines.3:25 It wasn't just a music video; it was a piece of folklore that exploded in real time.3:31 It changed what a music video could even BE.3:35 But did it change it for the better?3:37 Or did it just create this expectation for huge, cinematic spectacle that overshadowed the music itself?3:45 I mean, honestly, what do people remember more vividly: the bassline of "Thriller" or the zombie dance?3:53 Okay.3:53 That's...3:54 a really good point.3:55 The dance.3:56 The red jacket.3:57 The werecat transformation.3:59 The iconography is maybe more famous than the song now.4:03 Exactly!4:04 And that’s the real tension for me.4:07 Is Thriller a victim of its own success?4:10 It became so massive, so ubiquitous, that it almost stopped being an album and just became...4:17 cultural noise.4:18 A symbol.4:18 So you’re saying its legacy gets in the way of actually listening to it.4:24 That we can’t hear the songs for the spectacle.4:27 I think so!4:28 It’s so deeply rooted in the eighties, in that specific moment of sight and sound coming together on television for the first time.4:38 It was perfect for its time.4:40 But does that make it perfect for all time?4:43 When something is that monumental, can you still walk up to it and see the fine details?4:50 Or are you just staring at a shadow it casts over everything that came after?4:56 Huh.4:56 So the debate isn't really whether Thriller is good.5:00 The debate is whether we're even capable of hearing it anymore.
